Subject: mschmidt's first posting warning: long rant ahead, so be thankful that someone invented the scrollbutton.    perhaps it's because it's late, perhaps it's because i'm tired & feel that i've seen enough airports to last me a lifetime (just back from 2 more busy days in Sweden & i can still taste the horrible airline food at the back of my mouth)...    - but i actually find myself staying more & more clear of "real" design sites, and instead spend my online hours visiting sites that are more focused on content, than on flashy glamour (flashy as in sparkly, not the technology).    you know what i mean:     the brilliantly-written zeldman.com, the intelligent simplicity of 37 signals the overwhelmingly personal harrumph    these are the sites that bring me joy, and which keep me coming back for more... they're not particularly fancy, nor overly "designed", they don't use all the latest technologies - they're just interesting, in a plain ol' "this is very good"-sort of way    so... what's wrong with me? am i getting too old, am i over the hill at 25?    am i getting, shudder, boring?    or is the reason behind my jadedness simply that there is too much CRAP out there, that there are too many design sites that have no decent content, no idea, no form, no goals?    have we all become a community of complacent wannabies, with 20 second attention spans & an unnatural obsession with the latest & greatest internet technology, but lacking in even the most rudimentary design theory & skills?    people who steal, sorry, are "inspired", by other peoples' works so much that all websites look alike?    where's the Miika Saksi, David Carson, Neville Brody, insert name here, of the new century? where's the people that'll help shape the web, help define the future, show us what we've done wrong & how to fix it    where is the fucking content?    i'll rephrase that: what's the fucking point?    but, then again, perhaps it's just me - wallowing in self-pity, feeling that i needed to waste your valuable time bitching & whining like an old man.     ----- mschmidt / K10k

01. Subject: response - your rant on the news section Wow. I don't know what to say. Thanks for kicking me in the pants.     ----- six

02. Subject: the joys of growing up you're not getting old, dude, you're growing up. i'm 28 and agree with you wholeheartedly. despite the fact that were all creative in nature, the fact is, if you don't SAY anything with that creativity, then you're wasting your time. in my case, i use my creativity to sell my web site design services. why? because i simply don't have the time to sit around and make stuff up, or to play around with flash actionscripting all day. when responsibility becomes more a part of your life, some things take a back seat, and, unfortunately, one of those things is "free" time. quite often i sit at the computer and stare at wonderful things that people have created. and i wonder how in the world they have the time. then i remember that they're probably still in college and don't have to mow the grass or fix the leaky gutter on the front of the house. do i have some things to say with my creativity though? you bet. but like i said, free time is limited, and it may be a LONG time until some of those things make their way onto the screen. so, what happens then? well, if you're like me, you really enjoy taking a look at sites that DO have great content. sites this this one and praystation. that feeds the business side of my brain. but i still always follow the links that are posted here. links to those elaborate "art" sites, because it is those sites that show keep me excited about the web, and about where we're going with all of this.     ----- randal rust

03. Subject: Agree... I agree with your rant about content. I probably visit most "pure design" sites only once or twice, then I just forget. I visit designgraphik and submethod a lot of times, but thats because he's one of the people who most inspires me. Thats why I try to blend my site with design AND content. The web needs more fucking content! :-)     ----- Skizz...

04. Subject: response to rant... You're dead on. I'm just coming out of school, well actually dropping out of a 4 year institution to hit a new media school, and am in the process of conceptualizing my own webpage. Looking at your links, I am always impressed by the 'pretty' things I see...I really am. But I've always had this nagging feeling going away from the page.    "Was that from somebody's soul...or was it a advertisement for macromedia?"    I too have noticed some BEAUTIFULLY technical, complicated things that in itself must of taken many long nights of headaches to produce...but for what? Are they really expressing anything...or are they doing it just to prove it can be done...like cloning sheep.    *sigh* It's all a bit disheartening to think about. But you're not the only one feeling this way (you know that now), and now *I* know that *I'm* not the only one feeling this. So there must be others. :)    Content will prevail...this feeling only motivates me more to provide real emotion not just 'eye candy'...which may provide some interesting, fucked-up content that isn't just jagged vectors and opacity filled layers.     ----- Brian Reynard

05. Subject: Re: 07 COMMON CURE I am seeing some things happen: here's my two cents..    what's happening you say? you are being inundated by a load of shit. Someone figures out a way to do something, and then the entire industry has to rape it for the next three months.    Take example: The opening graphics for Saturday Night Live. The classic, horizontally moving color bars, from fade to fade, revealing what's underneath. I am not really sure if this is wehere the trend began, but you see this crap on every friggin site that contains flash.    All this flash shit is going to drive me fucking nuts soon. Are these same flashscripts ever going to end? There has to be a functional use for them. somehow...maybe I am just babbling. It runs the same chapter of the rounded corner box that flooded design in years past. Once pronounced into light, the rounded box was a slave to everyone calling themselves a designer, I mean...come on... Don't expect that if you put that fuckin thing in the design that it is going to make it good    The same goes for flash, same shit different day. praise the supafamous for finally saying it - where is the fuckin content?    It's like modern movies of the past 10 years, a flood through hollywood, the rise of digital effects in movies. It's like an excuse, they get 40 billion to do the film, and they spend a DOLLAR AND TWENTY FIVE CENTS on the script!!!!!!!!!!! what the fuck?!!!!    YOU ARE NOT GETTING BORING my friend, you are getting older and far wiser past your years. You are becoming a perfectionist in your trade, and you can spot crap from a mile away. I understand your problem, that everyone is doing the same fucking thing - and it's scary..    > have we all become a community of complacent > wannabies, with 20 second attention spans & > an unnatural obsession with the latest & greatest > internet technology, but lacking in even the most > rudimentary design theory & skills?    no - just some of them, not us...there are always going to be the people that make those sites, those shows, those ads, those books and those movies and there are all those sites - they are all looking the same - it is true - we don't have to do it..some people will    if someone jumps off the bridge, someone will always follow. the smart ones - build a new one (with a built in PS2, sound system, hot tub, dancing ladies, and a communal hooka)    there are people - REPEAT THERE ARE PEOPLE who thrive to make difference in induct change throughout. Us (being design folk) see it constantly because it is so fuckin accesible nowadays. It's like going to a museum where everone from picasso to my dog could display their work.    change, always change - new faces - all the time keep em guessing, never the same black one day - white the next offend them and then swing them around with your love never known - known now    change - force it   enforce it     ----- Peter Reid

06. Subject: Welcome to the land of fluff You know, here I am sailing through the summer with hopes of taking part in some sort of personal design exploratorium. But what happened? I didn't want to make shit. And consequently I've been filled with this unsatiable desire to create, but haven't "sploogied" yet because I haven't found a click who'll let me do it on her fa... err I mean a good enough, solid enough, idea to fly with.    I completely hear your side, your point, your... view. It's frustrating to say the least that so much crap gets put out there. So many sites with not a damn thing supporting them, claiming an entire existence on hip design.    And that's where the split lies. The dichotimy between those sites who have design fuled by solid content and those fuled by "fame" very neatly organizes indviduals into categories of creative people, and thoughtless people. To create a site with no content foundation, unless of course, it's purpose is to display design, is rediculous. Essential, it comes down to the egotistical boost fostered by having your link on other "underground" peeps sites and getting fan mail from equally boring and creativity-lacking followers who want to create a site of an equally pathedic and worthless nature to have your pathedic ass link back to them (and yes, this is a run-on-sentence).    God bless K10k for building around the content. God bless kiiroi for building around something solid. God bless and give a few hookers to all the sites who have the content, even if centers around turbin wearing, red sox fan, lesbian bookshop owners from cambridge.     ----- craig mod

07. Subject: one long rant don't worry    it's not you... it's the web... it's growing so fast and so quickly that only the strong will survive .. cliche cliche cliche..    we're all doomed to a decade of half ass work that is artsy because it can be...     ----- mike pasquale

08. Subject: content! (in Danish) Har også selv undret mig over om jeg er ved at blive for voksen til den følelseskolde, indholdsløse designscene i en alder af 21. Dit indslag giver mig grund til at tro at det ikke er sådan.    "Designscenen" er en stor familie, hvor inderkredsen dyrker incest med de mindre kendte onkler og afkommet bliver så en tons af lort man har set 20 gange før. Som det issue i har oppe nu hvor designeren skriver at det tog 2 uger at indse at konceptet ikke var noget koncept. Hvor kvikt, vi har både set det før og undskyldningen virker glimrende til at lave det samme uigennemtænkte, men stil-baserede vås som giver designeren credit for at være "med på moden".    "Talk the talk, walk the walk" - men det bliver ikke til andet end talk the talk.    Det er tankevækkende at den MTV-generation vi hadede så meget, er ved at overrumple os bagfra fordi man åbenbart har stirret sig blind i dette had. Hvad var idéen - hvis der nogensinde var nogen? Teknologien bevæger sig med flash'ens fremskridt til at gøre computeren og internettet til endnu et sted hvor man kan se TV.    Et overfladisk sted der blot vil underholde, et stort ulykkeligt bæst der kun viser os det man tror vi vil se.    Design handler ikke om 'motion' - det handler ligesom alle andre håndværk om at forstå sin historie, tilegne sig viden og blive bedre til at forvandle design til et sigende virkemiddel. Omslaget på en bog skal ikke blot være "kick ass" men netop illustrere historien, fange målgruppen, være et stillestående mesterværk.    Måske er grunden til at vi ikke har set særlig meget af denne symbiose mellem indhold og design, at designere simpelthen er for intetsigende, ikke tør tage stilling, ikke aner hvorledes de skal omforme ord til grafik. Ingen ved endnu hvad internettet er og hvad dets hovedformål skal være, men personligt ønsker jeg stadig at det skal være et stort bibliotek hvor man kan finde sin historieopgave, sin porno, folk fra andre kulturer end ens egen, finde mere end man i grunden ledte efter. Design må så være den indbydende indpakning, der ikke længere skal være aktuel eller trendy, men være smuk i sin funktionalitet.    Og det er vel netop essensen; vi laver indpakning. Men det holder sgu ikke at pakke en fisk ind i en smart t-shirt fra Kangol. Ville ønske jeg kunne slutte med "indse det eller dø" men så konsekvent kan jeg desværre ikke være overfor den hær af lort der hænger i min browser. dag ud og dag ind.     ----- Anders Hornstrup

09. Subject: warning: long rant ahead...... Your are not getting 'boring' etc.... I would say you are recieving insight, the truth.    Content IS (/SHOULD BE) king. Content FIRST t-h-e-n Design.    Design should help to Communicate and 'frame' the content. Design is after all, a mode of communication. 'true' design is sooooo much much more than the 'eye candy' that tries to pass itsel off as 'design'    > where's the Miika Saksi, David Carson, > Neville Brody, insert name here, of the new > century? where's the people that'll help > shape the web, help define the future, show > us what we've done wrong & how to fix it    think Paul Rand, Tibor Kalman.    > people who steal, sorry, are "inspired", by > other peoples' works so much that all > websites look alike?    the key to doing that is taking the inspiration, and bringing it to another level. adding your own voice.    > or is the reason behind my jadedness > simply that there is too much CRAP out > there, that there are too many design sites > that have no decent content, no idea, no > form, no goals?    unfortunately there are tooo many 'design' oriented sites whose only content (psuedo-content) is them showing us " hey look what I can do with PhotoShop!! "     ----- EMG

10. Subject: where's the content? i've got some down my sleeve :)     ----- Johan Raes

11. Subject: ::: content ::: you know, i feel you when you say everything looks the same.. i try and change things up daily... it brings more joy to people including myself when they know what the heck is going on... keep it up.. )     ----- mark arcenal

12. Subject: Getting Old I understand the point you made about pointless design. Sounds to me like you're getting burnt out. I used to work at a game site. You get to see the latest and greatest games, yes, but you also have to go through a lot of crap. Don't let the stink of all the shit you have to go through dull your senses to the future directions of design.    Remember, the more junk that people throw out there, the better the chance of there being more gems in the pile. It's like Darwin's theory of evolution. There's no master plan. There's just a lot of monkey's, and apes, and ants, and other critters running around, and the best of breed will survive and move on. There are dumb monkey's and gifted monkey's. Unlike the rest of us, you probably get exposed to many more gifted monkeys than any of the rest of us. :-)    Building a business is the same way. The faster you fail, the faster you learn. In every failure (or bad design) there's a lesson to be learned. If you learn more lessons than everyone else, that makes YOU smarter. If you're smarter than your competition, your chances of winning or increased. Or, for design, the likelihood that your designs will excel will be much higher.    Revel in the blandness and mediocrity of the sites you receive, even if one happens to comes from me someday :-). Keep sifting through and finding the gems and talented monkeys. It'll be worth it.     ----- maurice wright

13. Subject: WTF is content I, too, am feeling the same way. Maybe you should remind people . . .    "You are not your fucking website"    ok, thanx. Back to Mac Diablo2. WOOT     ----- c!nder

14. Subject: given time your rant will be assuaged it's ironic to hear you say these things given that james and i are on the cusp of realising the •••••••• project - which has been in gestation for over a year now.    it's also particularly ironic because we are about to launch a new and revitalising section on THREE.OH that deals explicitly and entirely with the subject of content on the web.    so i guess i'm saying:    welcome to shoreditch give us a little time and i know how you feel (i think)     ----- stanley

15. Subject: dude, you are totally right. I work for my own technically oriented design firm, and I'm building a giant, information-heavy website that's based on innovative backend, not presentation technology.    I'm the creative director (and a fairly good and experienced web designer), and what I find overwhelmingly is that there are simply _no_ good sites out there that are about content or information. I read k10k and threeoh and designiskinky and all the other avant-garde design sites daily, but I have never seen a lot of information presented elegantly.    Every week Communications Arts presents another site serving up a paragraph per page while we're stuck with the awful aesthetic of sites like eBay or the arguably worse non-aesthetic of sites like Yahoo!    Everybody bitches about corporate sites being poorly designed - but nobody's yet designed an elegant, information-driven site anywhere on the web. When people start building those sites (as I'm trying [unsuccessfully] to do right now), we'll see a design community which has some relevance to the web at large. I'd like to see someone rebuild Amazon with usability, information architecture and design all in mind at once; not yet another extruded-until-the-end-of-the-world designed-site clone.    Thanks for saying what needed to be said!     ----- Josh Rothman

16. Subject: web = boring? I've been visiting design sites for the past 7 months, compiling an astronomical amount of links and such, getting a feel for what's on the net. But I find myself never going back to these great sites. Why? Well, like you said, we need good content. Which is why K10K, Three.Oh, H73, Kiiroi, Zeldman.com, and DIK is on my Favorites Bar.    I wanted to take a sec to explain to you what I'm working on. I wanted to keep much of it a secret, but today, when I read your rant, I find it necessary to explain my project because I want to secure your feelings that there is a great website coming. Not to get on my high horse or anything, but I guess you could say I'm working on a •••••••• type online site.    That's the closest comparison I can think of. Take a look at ••••••••. I've got some kickass ideas for a great mix of design and content. I've never been so excited about something in years and years of being on the web working on my animation portal, staytooned. But I gotta tell ya, it's your site that has really given me that "inspirational launchpad" (that everyone touts as their header) to want to change my major to design and put together a site that I hope will someday gain your approval.    STATIC IS KING, keep your head up Michael. Maybe you should try putting K10K on avantgo.com. That's where my site will be going. Palm shite, that is.     ----- Moggy (Evan)

17. Subject: rant and rave! Your not getting boring man your just starting to see past the lovely 3d shapes, clever use of colour and type and see what the first focus of a great website should be, content.    I can apreciate a really nice looking site and I know I am influenced by what I see out there these days but I would choose something like theletters.org over the next great piece of flash work anyday.     ----- Scott Brown

18. Subject: please.... old man!?!?! at 25? HA.    these phases of thought will come and go and come and go and come and go. nothing to do with age.    you will be loving what's next. and there always IS a "next."    this stuff's just stagnant for now.    don't sink toooo low.....(i believe airline food has a chemical effect on the brain, which you are experiencing)    maybe the content is missing because the web has become a big forum for designers / artists / programmers...who can self-publish any bit of crap they feel like putting out there.    imagine if a city was overrun in a matter of a year or two by lots and lots and lots of art galleries because the spaces were suddenly "free" to any artist who knew how to sign the papers...you might see a tiny bit more great or smart art, but mostly you would see crap.    that's what the web is like.    thank the gods for jeffrey z. (i remember the day he left work 5 years ago with "HTML for Dummies" and came back the next morning and told us all to look at his website....blew us all away with essentially the same website that you see now, and it kicked ass against any art director sites....and he wasn't even a designer. he was a writer/creative director!)    we are just experiencing growing pains.    (thanks for your crazy ramblings....keep chowin' on that airline food!)     ----- Suzanne Terhorst

19. Subject: [:.:.:.: yay! :.:.:.:.:] per your rant on k10k:    I couldn't have fucking said it better myself...    You have always had my respect, and what you wrote, well hell, you gained even more of my respect..    or maybe it's because we are both 25 or whatever, ah hell, I dunno.. =P    I can see all the little web design groupies saying it now... "complacent wannabies? is he talking about me?"    haha     ----- bryan

20. Subject: Re: your rant for today I read your rant today... very interesting points. As you no doubt know, I work along side of one of the content kings, Zeldman... I have recently been talking to Zeldman, Gabe (Born Mag), Kris (Spark Online), Carol (NetDiver) and others about an idea...    Gabe, Kris and I are going to be meeting up in Portland this next week to talk about.. well.. a lot of stuff.. one thing I am going to bring to the dinner table is an idea that has been stirring in my head... it's about collaboratively building something that everyone can use and has "valuable" content and design.    The thing it will NOT be is about just us, it will not be an elitist thing, it will not be a "exclusionary" group or network, it will not be a money making machine.. it WILL be about bringing "value" back into the (for the lack of a better word) scene... it will be about bring people from all walks of life together, not unlike what we saw at Project40... it will be about actually making a mark in the world today... I am talking about something that will be there many years after we have left these lives we live... something for the future generations of web designers and graphical designers so they can share our experiences by learning about them first hand.. so we can, so to speak, pass the torch.    I have no idea what will come of the conversation around the dinner table between me Gabe and Kris... Right now it's only fragments in my mind.. bits and pieces of ideas floating around... I am hoping something will fuse together at this meeting... something brilliant... I am hoping something that we all can be proud of and something we and others can see as a great accompaniment, even several years after we have passed on. THAT, to me, is something meaningful.    I know I probably got you thinking and if you have questions I am not 100% sure I can answer them at this time. All I know is that something will come of this and hopefully it will be something good and very meaningful ...for the better of the scene... for the better of us... for the better of tomorrow's designer.    Thoughts? Questions? No need to send money, the brain works without a dime.     ----- nick finck

21. Subject: regarding "long rant ahead..." PREACH IT!    Sincerely (and hoping form ALWAYS follows function),     Over The Hill at 29     ----- robert

22. Subject: its not just you... ...and cut with the old man crap, dude - I just turned 26 and you're not helping with my late-twenties angst.    as for your k10k post, me and my good pal sarah work together at this mammothly gargantuan corporation in australia. we started on the same day and we've stuck together pretty fiercely ever since. just yesterday we were having a good laugh about being in a meeting and having to put up with a client (another woman colleague) describing what we do as interface/web designers as "prettying up the site". another man in the meeting labelled us "the revlon ladies" - and i can't remember the exact words he said now (i'm traumatised...i'm blocking it out) but it was something to the effect of what god gives women, revlon makes up for - comparing this overtly sexually opressive and capitalist statement to our technical team providing a blank but functional site, and us web designers then making it aesthetically pleasing. where cindy crawford fits in here I am not sure. as you can imagine we waxed lyrical to this dickhead for a fair while after this comment - but he was probably not listening but studying our lips tryin    now i'm moaning and whingeing to you like an old crow. sorry dude. k10k is my web saviour. i don't know how I found the site in my travels but it has injected some much needed inspiration into my life. but check out the new wallpaper site, gee i love that publication but i am really disappointed with how distinctly their site lacks gripping content. it is so pretty that a few pages in you just know that the site is like this thinly disguised balsar wood movie set, and just a little finger prod would tip the facade in all of one second revealing little more than a cloud of dust and a few bashful, disbelieving crew members.    anyway thanks for k10k. it just...rocks my world, really. don't be disheartened and don't let the lack of content out there poison your own admirable content efforts. there are a few really excellent creators down here in australia and sooner or later they are going to be unleashed. i'll let you know when they are.     ----- georgie

23. Subject: oh my god let me guess -- too much too soon? yeah... hang on, you'll make it through.    btw, zeldman sucks. biggest whiner out there and he can't design or conceptualize his way out of a paper bag.    ps: go out get drunk and get laid -- do you good :-)     ----- randall

24. Subject: hey Just read your 'rant' on k10k... havta say, i've been feeling the same things lately to the point that sometimes i feel that i might take 'timeout' from the internet and come back when at least the methods of idea implementation are standardised.    I'm sick of having to focus on gadgetry and gimmicks to get the attention of an audience but unfortunately it's what clients want and what seems to work with audiences now.    it's early days though. everyone's still vying for VC and when the technology becomes transparent again, the content will shine. Don't let it get ya down.     ----- andrew knott

25. Subject: ohhh mikie following your rant, i do tend to agree but after a very long night working on a very ugly content heavy, but still fuckin ugly site i see the point that everything has its place.    i do however agrea that i some times feal like i have seen it all before.     ----- Rich McCoy

26. Subject: totally agree... i agree with everything you say in your 'rant' but i can't help thinking that k10k has helped encourage the type of vapid empty 'decoration' that passes for design on the web.    as you know, k10k was a huge inspiration for me to start ::dplanet:: and i have great respect for both yourself and token as designers and thinkers.    however, in your (laudable) attempt to create a strong and friendly design community, k10k has neglected to foster an intellectual, critical environment.    like you, i have increasingly turned my attention to the kind of critique and debate encouraged by zeldman, kottke and others. the whole focus of ::dplanet:: has moved away from attempting to foster a design community (partly because there was no way i could compete with k10k!) towards a more critical approach. I am much more interested in the views of hans_extrem, david hofmeyr, zeldman, kris from *spark-online, Reinhold Grether etc...    i am sick to death with the undisciplined 'super-cool' often talentless, self-satisfied and self-referential online design community. this kind of anti-'decoration' backlash is long overdue!    i am very happy that you have used k10k to make this protest. young web designers have an enormous amount of respect for you and k10k carries a lot of weight.    i am always amazed when i see guys like final.nu saying shit like, "fuck zeldman, he's a loser" simply because he stands for intellectual creativity.    as someone who has studied both fine art and philosophy, i was especially impressed by what mike (method) said at project40. the problem with most young web designers is that they have no design methodology, no foundation and no substance.    all of us who believe in these ideals need to practice what we preach. i really look forward to seeing the kind of reaction you get.     ----- Damian Stephens

27. Subject: Your rant.. [well since you ranted you get to hear my thoughts out loud..]    I think that your rant is a reflection of a couple of things:    :: sensory overload    :: the generally superficial nature of design    (remember josh ulm's eye candy..that is    what it was all about.)    :: the lack of quality behind the content.    last summer while in Hamburg working with Fork I was really feeling the overload and started thing about the possibility of developing optic cancer. Cancer in the eye caused by looking at too much design. It really doesn't matter, good design, bad design... to much perfume will make you sick.    That hand painted sign for gas on a wind blasted board in the middle of Utah can be so relaxing to the eye.    Find yourself looking at signage as you walk around criticizing the use of typography, color, layout? It isn't healthy, but can't really be turned off now... the price of being a professional.    The web as entertainment needs a lot of work. What I really don't understand is the number of people flocking to the web to be entertained. Look at heavy.com. The games and movies on heavy.com are so inferior to what you see on bad tv or what you would play on your Playstation.    A lot of it has to do with the novelty. Look at very early movies had how excited people would get at watching a train move. But I suppose a certain amount of it has to do with the user feeling like a master over a medium.    But eventually this will wear out. I suspect that someday you will see more and more subscription based services appearing on the web. I don't see how you are going to be able to get much mass "quality" content otherwise.    Ultimately it comes down to what you look at. If you look at everything you are going to see mostly crap. Go to any "open" art festival or fair. But once in a while something true and brilliant comes along, like Sissyfight.     ----- John Weir

28. Subject: (!) long time listener, first time caller    RE: your last post on k10k:    > warning: long rant ahead, so be thankful that > someone invented the scrollbutton. > perhaps it's because it's late, perhaps it's > because i'm tired & feel... HOLY F#@K! you just summed up exactly how I feel at the moment.     ----- Brett Greay

29. Subject: think you might be right Having just read your notice, don't get the feeling you're on your own! I too spend(t) hours examining the design sites - many of which are linked from your site - and when I have finished end up feeling empty and (time) wasted.    There do seem to be more and more of the same and less and less of the different - but I also put it down to experience - the more you see the more you've seen so you're bound to come across things which reference other stuff or which are just ripping ideas off.    I think there's also this need to deconstruct web sites, from a design point of view, so there's a lot of "wonder how they did that." followed by (a few weeks and many hours spent developing / designing, later) "oh, that's easy, I know how they did that - even though I didn't do it first, I could have done if I'd thought about it." and yes, all this does distract from content and you're right where is the content on the design sites - is it in the designs itself? How many more company portfolios does one have to endure to find something which is really worth the time?    Maybe then, it's about design and content and a synergy between the two. Perhaps it's about being in the right place at the right time and being able to influence things or nudge them in the direction you feel they should go.    K10k has the essence of that doesn't it? Design and content in harmony (not like a choir more like the dischordant harmonics of punk, a kind of "it shouldn't really work, but it does").    At twenty five you're not old - at least I hope not, since I'm thirty five and let me tell you sometimes that feels old. You've got plenty more years to feel like shit in the morning and better by lunch - my recovery time is so long I measure it in days.    I'd been meaning to mail you to say that I enjoy k10k and find much of it's content very . . . (. . .inspiring - seems like a grown up word). Am quitting my job soon (designer at •••••••• in UK) to be designer in smaller agency - hopefully I've negotiated a position which will give me some design scope outside of the constraints of single corporations like this one. Or maybe not.     ----- John Hillman

30. Subject: regarding your bitch session... I totally agree. I used to surf from designed site to designed site, but the whole look and feel of them seemed like colour variations on a theme.    Now I enjoy the likes of the misanthropic bitch - totally undesigned basically text site, but no shortage of cynical - and addictive - humour. It's brilliant.     ----- olivia w

31. Subject: where is the fucking content? i've seen too many sites such as 23dreams, who recently said "i love design" in 30 combinations.    i think great design is only great when it includes (one) something new or (two) something intelligent. otherwise there's no dynamic/without dynamics, there's no - as you said - point.     ----- olle dierks

32. Subject: RE: Rant It isn't just you. I tend to visit the "flashy design sites" only on occasion, while the sites I visit on a semi-daily basis are those with interesting content. In fact, the three sites you mentioned are all on my list of daily reads.    My own site is severely lacking in both good design and real content at the moment. But I rarely worry about the design, whereas I constantly beat myself up for not putting more effort into the content. And if you're over the hill at 25, then I'm over the hill at 22.     ----- Gerald Stanley

33. Subject: supa shite mo´like editor's note: yes, this is the person we named our mascot after. it seemed fitting, seeing that barney the beagle is quite a nasty little bitch too.    ohhhhhh poor, poor man, what a horrible little vacuum we must live in, seen enough airports to last a lifetime....sick of airline food...stay at fucking home then,you certainly don´t need to travel, boring the pants off all and sundry with that inane banter of yours,and another thing quit spouting from yer soapbox in that god awful grey portal.    what the hell are you hashing on about anyway, mister`burnin-bush???, is this a cry to relinquish the trappings of `the lastest technolgies` boo-hoo, Hark!!!! let´s have a return to `s-i-m-pw-i-city´ on the web now, a form of good ole´wholesome campfire chuckwagon coding from the days of yore..ping...    ´but i actually find myself staying more & more clear of "real" design sites´ ACTUALLY!!!who gives a flying fuck ???!!!Keep that pish to yerself. On guard!!, you´ve been one of the patrons of this shite rememba!!    don´t bite the sweaty hand that feeds ya brother, go to a library, pick up a book if thats whatcha be lookin´ fur. i´ll meet you at the returns desk, bring the rest of yer grey hairs.....patter merchants. but hey!!!.. no fucking noise mind!!! SILENCE.     ----- Barnaby Penhaligon

34. Subject: your rant nah, you're not getting old, you're getting wise. i totally agree with your rant. as much as i love 'design for design's sake'-style sites and am duly impressed by the latest flash masturbations, i agree that at the end of the day you can find yourself a little starved for content surfing those sites. it's great weblogs, including your news section on k10k, that keeps me coming back for more ideas, diatribes, opinions and hey, even rants.    keep up the ranting, it's food for thought for a starving web community     ----- jarin tabata

35. Subject: Totally agree... Just to say, I read your 'rant' and I agree 100% with what you say there. I work as a designer at •••••••• in Brixton as my dayjob (but I'm leaving next week...) and in my spare time I do spinemagazine.com with a few others. I wanted to make a site that does its job graphically without needing to be flashy and over-the-top - but had the CONTENT behind it to back everything up.    The amount of sites I look at just once, think, 'Yeah, that looks nice', and then never return to... Every day another huge batch of links come through for me to look at...    I don't see the point of all these sites that encapsulate meaningless rubbish in an attractive shell...    If I go to a music site, I don't want to sit and wait nine years for a meaningless 45Mb Flash intro to unfold. I want to read the information that I came there for.    Alos, why do certain people think they need a web-presence? I mean, I'm leaving •••••••• because the company's ethics have changed so much since I started there... Peperami, Domestos, Jif... no-one really gives a shit about looking at their websites, do they? A cleaning detergent website? C'mon... be serious...    I want content! Not 32Mb GIF animations with no real function...     ----- Chris Aylen

36. Subject: You're spot on No really, your comments were spot on. No content = pointless, meaningless waste of time... but a *pretty* waste of time! Heh. All these things that must take so long to make and I look at them for about 30 seconds "thats nice, what does it do? nothing? Oh, wonder what else is out there [close window]". So, nice rant ;P hehe     ----- Luke

Subject: token's comment 01 It's the shudderman, my dear!    Today is rant day!! I can't stand it when people moan, moaning is my turf! Stay off... I agree that not much is supafresh on the web, but hey, wait till the brains get over their web-o-phobia and get in the ring... what we need is more brains, no, we need more old people.    I wouldn't worry too much at present; give people their time to get up and get down. The whole thing is coming together, I think, but it needs LOADS of time to grow.. Like K10k - we haven't seen anything yet, really??    I am worried about people talking about "content", the word is being as misunderstood as "flash" and "web-design". Don't talk to me about content. I like the word "stuff" more... Don't talk about "story-telling" either - it is much more basic... do your thing. That's it.    I see all these dead design-glitsy hollow sites and I think "great, I have a nice opportunity too look into people's sketchbooks here", that's all it is.     Zeldman, sort us out! :-)     ----- token / K10k

37. Subject: on mschmidt's writing. I wouldn't take the whole content thing to hard. I can't speak for real, but I believe that the people behind a site like k10k do get to see only a true, *that's good stuff* 2% of all the information that needs sifting thru on a day.    I mean - where you and toke have created that certain -place of unity - for most of the creative people in this area, it's likely you get to see a lot of crap as well.    It's what you make of it - most of the young designkids now would kill for a mentioning at k10. And often they get mentioned - if only for the way their piece on the net is simply a show-off on photoshop filters.    Like this term I read, think t was kottke.org - flashturbation. Using flash to see how good you can do flash.    It must be some kind of new trend nobody knows the real deal on. Haha - without doubt, 2000 can be seen as the year of no content!    My advice - go on with ranting.   There's good content outthere, all the time. It's not always presented the way it should be.    And otherwise, do like I do, and visit kaliber a few times a day. Always content there.     ----- kristoff

38. Subject: you've touched a nerve To old? no (but i would say that as i'm 10 years older than you!)    Boring? well i doubt you are but well this one really is 'in the eye of the beholder' - personally I come out of a fine art background and some of the most interesting art of the last century is pretty boring! minimal means, painfully long durations of time etc. etc. I've gotta lot of time for 'boring' - as opposed to flashy, speedy, gee-whizzy (thats both people and design)!    Lets face it it's never been soooooo easy to 'create' your own thing and show it to the world - no struggle (at least if you live in the first world that is) so of course most of what you get is crap.    Every one wants to be supafamous when the're young don't they?    Now i'm NOT saying you have to have some kind of existential struggle with your soul (sod that) to create something of interest but content you have to have. That's if what your doing is called design... art is a different ball game! I don't belive design exists on it's own - that's a misunderstanding a lot of the sites you refer to make. Design is about facilitating comunication, about getting a message across, perhaps in the ideal 'design-work' form and content become one - but lets be realistic here that's an ideal    Where are the web design stars? - hey the medium's too young! How long has print been around? Just because we work in a medium that evolves at light fast speed (so it seems) doesn't mean we as humans can.. Give it time - there will be 'stars' - maybe you'll be one!    The only thing i'd say to other designers is serve the content and try to make sure there is some (!) and it's good, usefull content, not hype, noise or disinformation.    btw i hate advertising - ohh and fashion sucks...     ----- sticky

39. Subject: Recent rant I just read your rant in the k10k news reel and felt compelled to fire you a message about it.    I agree with you in the fact that certain sites keep me coming back day after day to see what has been updated. I mean, your k10k is the first site I hit everyday just to see the clever links and updated news. By saying that, it is the 'content' that I am seeking.    However, about 80% of my web browsing is seeking out websites that push the creative envelope. Designgraphik, dform1, submethod, volumeone. All these guys keep me on my toes as to what's what in creative web design. Now, would I go to these websites everyday? Nope, just for the fact that there is nothing new daily.    Which brings me to the strong agreement with you, without content sites such as your own, we would never now when Mr. Owens launches his tasty new volume. But without the creative side, the web would not be as powerful and clever as it is today.    It's an e-cosystem my friend.     ----- James Evil

40. Subject: thanks for the rant i think too many of us feel the same....     and yet all we do is rant?     ----- geralyn

41. Subject: ...but it was nice to hear you say it. Your rant today was nice...i was coming back to k10k regularly to see all the sites people wax poetic over and found myself saying 'So what!?!'; A sea of geometric shapes over photoshop backgrounds with tiny lines and a sea of discordant type and... and... and...NO CONTENT!    I am just about to leave for design school in fall and what i hope to learn is to filter out all the style and suck in more meaning, and i think it's time some of the babied and coddled web elite did the same.     ----- Rae Fenwick

42. Subject: Your Rant I just read your rant on k10k. The problem isn't the lack of acceptable content or the medium. The problem is people's perceptions. We have come to expect too much from the web. We have seen too much too fast and are now ruined. The problem isn't the lack of something to say. The problem is there's nothing worth saying.   With the chance to reach a million people, there is the realization that a million people do not care what we have say. The Internet has proven that although it is easier to reach people, it is just as impossible as it has ever been to truly reach people on a true level. We strive every day to appeal to their senses. We hone and refine our art. To what end?   If Jesus had a website today, how many hits would he get? Depends how tight his design is I suppose.     ----- Randy Anderson

43. Subject: wha?! > where's the Miika Saksi, David Carson, > Neville Brody, insert name here, of the new > century? where's the people that'll help shape > the web, help define the future, show us what > we've done wrong & how to fix it    > where is the fucking content?"    What?!! What are you talking about?! You & Token are that! You guys are the designers of the century!! I get more inspiration from you guys than any other site out there. After following k10k from the beginning, I'd have to say you two are my idols! Great design, innovative web technology, fresh content! You rock!!     ----- laurie

44. Subject: depressed Are you guys slowly depressing recently ?    :)     ----- david klinger

45. Subject: hey ranting fool isn't it all the fucking point? the whole main mess of it all? the chaos of life we try to put into organized catagories classification accounting perfect simple design user friendly because what do we do when there is no content when design sucks when we are rambling and ranting because we don't feel connected to this "thing" and wonder why everyone doesn't get it.    i think about the before computers before television before radio before telegraph. i wonder what people said about the printing press i think it was the same thing as we say about the computer today. i remember telling my friend isn't this all great i mean we have mass produced food we have space ships going to mars i can talk to my friends on the other side of the world in a box that sits on my desk what else is there to do but make the stuff we have better? he says...jackass i am sure when fire was created someone sat there and said this is great! what else could we possibly do now?!    what do we do wrong and how do we fix it? the answer is everywhere, in the past in the sky deep in ourselves...we just keep moving and trying new things that suck new things that work and that is the beauty of it...it isn't perfect, just perfect odd moments that we hold like photographs, clips from films, the beat the reminds you of when......    keep posting great posts... you inspire people like me and them, and others, and yourself and it continues....and we all get to meet and talk on this great land of cybernowhere that ceases to exist with the pull of the plug with the forgetting of a thought with the dream after awaking...and it yet it breathes somewhere...peace mate...and really who's time is so valuable they don't have time to listen to ranting and raving when we all do it and want to be heard!!     ----- amber ochal

46. Subject: Thank you Don't have much time to write (of course, why can't this business slow down in the summer, like everything else), but I just wanted to say thanks for your comment/rant (the long one) in the K10K forum/news section. Keep it coming.    Let's talk about what design really is, lets talk about our history, our real role in society.     ----- Petter Ringbom

Subject: cameron campbell's comments my two cents:    it has nothing to do with "nothing worth saying" -- although many of those e-commerce sites do not -- it is all in the presentation. we have become so dependent on the bells and whistles that we no longer think about what we want to say and what is the appropriate way to say it. more people need to realize that there is a time and a place for the "flash" -- not all sites/design requires it.    we, as designers or whatever, need to be more responsible with the technology and help our clients/viewers think more about appropriate content... THE TIME TO EDUCATE IS NOW. it is time to study the users... what do they want? what do they need?    unfortunately "the average everyday person" could give a damn about design... i will refer to my family - architect/interior designer mother, investment banker father, and my younger brother who is both an attorney and and investment banker. they just want the information. good design does not flash in your face. good design gives you the information you want in a non-chaotic manner. i hate to do this.. but really take a look at the method portfolio... we try not to use the "flash" technology unless it is truly needed...    "corporate sites" -- all fairly simple sites set up on a grid... fairly easy entry... information easy to find... GRID AND TYPE!! fusionone, autodesk, tradeweave, style365    flashy sites -- or the fluff sites as i like to call them... these sites do not have "content" their main purpose is to get your attention - to showoff... smashstatusquo, defytherules, theapt    this can also be applied to print design... this is not only any issue with webdesign... and michael, i think david carson did an incredible job of getting many people to recognize "design" but i do not think is has been one of the folks who has pushed "content" design... but i will save this rant for another day... i will go on for hours!!!     ----- cameron campbell

47. Subject: rant maybe the problem is as well that were all designers, and human as well...never being 100% pleased with anything and always looking for something better...i do have to say though that most of the sites that are being posted on k10k are other designers sites and web company sites (mostly) and there really is alot of good industry news (good mac news)....it alwasy seems like all the sites are always trying to out do each other or something and that gets alittle weird ...i figure i like to have fun wth this stuff so sites like k10k show me what else is going on and it also brings alot of people together    but one of the biggest things that i feel has been overlooked in this whole rant is that working online is alot better than working on print jobs i spent a year studying and working and redesigning and then doing more studying and then after a while another year had gone by where i had spent about 3 years learning this thing...at somepoint with all things you tap out...you know the dream...retire early, live on the beach sell sunglasses or something stupid...i feel like the web has got me all tangled up and i cant get out...i am always working on my website, if im away from it for too long i get shaky, i want towork on saturdays and i know all these other people who go home at 5 and call it a night ....it really is a double edged sword...i mean do you think you could not post news on the weekend?     ----- Mark Lanford

Subject: token's comment 02 wouldn't want to spoil the party, but thinking about it, aren't K10k actually promoting no-content jerk-off nonsense sites? I mean, we are posting many links, and some of this stuff is NOT content saturated and most of it is NOT cutting edge.    I do not think this is bad.     I believe theres a time for learning the trade, then there's the time to master the trade. And as far as I am concerned we are all little sweaty confused apprentices.     ----- token / K10k

48. Subject: yet more feedback > but thinking about it, aren't K10k actually > promoting no-content jerk-off nonsense sites? > I mean, we are posting many links, and some of > this stuff is NOT content saturated and most of > it is NOT cutting edge    Um... I always thought k10k was about design and for designers. Sort of "we're all adults here". Things don't necessarily need to be content backed or someone's idea of cutting edge -- it's believed the readership can see around that. And that we're not here to be educated by lecturing. It's more after hours in the bar style: designers saying to designers, 'hey, look at this!'    I guess I like to think k10k is 'above' all the soul-searching dribble about web design that's been going on lately. Design is everywhere and has been around for a long time. Historically there have been lots of such soul-searching. I don't think anything ever has come of it. The truly new, cool stuff seems to always spring from exposure to other ideas.    If k10k was a paper magazine, I would read it for the pictures. I don't think that's a bad thing. I'm interested in design and graphics and layout and such. I would want that magazine to be my monthly overload of neat examples. I would want my roommates to say, 'hey, your issue of design porn is here', knowing I will go off with it to the porch and just pour through it for hours, not talking except to say "cool!" a lot. I wouldn't give a damn about the editorials. That's not the meat. That's not the 'content'. So there you go. It's about excitement. And yes, oh baby, you two still get me excited.     ----- bigstripes

49. Subject: content and form "Form is what makes content significant, gives it style, and elucidates meaning." - Paul Rand     ----- Peter Rentz

50. Subject: this 'content' talk I have been following the discussion on the news, and I can't believe what I'm hearing.    It seems the no-content crap you're talking about ARE peoples sketchbooks and minor contributions... k10k (the old dirty version) used to get me so psyched and show me things that were beautiful and inspiring and personal, regardless if they had meaty text and mind-expanding concepts.    Today, it is link-saturated and actually predictable. I used to get the impression from the previous version that I was seeing what it was like being in the Michael & Toke studio (even though there wasnt a physical one), a closer project to your hearts than the current one. A rating system, a news post with 30 people posting, the same gray grid... it is a most excellent accomplishment, I can't begin to say how cool it is, but it is definitely different.    And now, getting this promotion of 'plain old sites' from the biggest guns on the net-- I am concerned.    Are you getting old at 25? I don't think so. We aren't acquianted, I am a confused American student, but I feel that through k10k since last spring, I have been exposed to a lot of Mschmidt, be it through 'good news, bad news' (which was brilliant) or just checking the daily posts. Todays k10k shows at least 10 links a day, which amounts to about 70 sites a week to check quickly and go back to work... it is saturation, and that desensitizes us to the medium.     I don't have a conclusion to this.     ----- Arlo Jamrog

51. Subject: rant Part of the problem is that you almost have to do flashy stuff to get respect. When recommending a site that has a fairly simple design, people always feel the need to justify the creators by saying things like 'but they've also made this really complex stuff, look here!'     I think that, as soon as the medium gets a bit older, it will be ok to do simple designs again. I can imagine Gutenberg sitting around with his gang going 'hey, look at my two-colour printing skillz!', but soon people started doing the black-and-white, no-nonsense typography that has been around for the last 500 years. We just have to get to that stage, and then start doing some serious learning. I still want to be doing this when I'm ninety.     ----- gen

52. Subject: rant rant rant rant rant rant rant I am really enjoting rant day-    It's nice to read some theory about what's going on in webland rather than just seeing new url's all the time. I think you guys are on to something here... But the trick will be to keep this posting power in the hands of those who actually have something intelligent to say while at the same time keeping things somewhat democratic. Seems like the whole razorfish dilemma has opened lots of eyes and doors, and who knows, perhaps a new paradigm in the bizarre relationship between designers, corporate giants and information? I was having a discussion with my friend Grace the other day about the endless freedom that web designers have, as opposed to, say, an Architect, who is limited by the constraints of building codes, gravity, and budgets. Here's what she had to say :    "Well I tend to agree with you in some respect at least in the are of non-limitation. ... but the truth ofthe matter is that the restrictions around the medium are sometimes complex. You know at this point to reach all the people you want to with an image one must choose between designing for the lowest common denominator (browser type, slow connection, shitty monitor resolution) and saying just fuck it, those elite with the set-up to see what I design will be the only ones to enjoy it. I think the area that I wish I had more time to devote to is that which takes a very useable approach to design .... shall we say form meeting function. This is an area that at some point in the near future will not be as restrictive, but it is good to understand the limits of the web and how those limits affect a message".    Maybe someday the same kinds of restrictions will be placed on web designers- hopefully not, but who knows. Perhaps it's time for designers to get together and establish some kind of framework from which to work within so that "the man" doesn't do it for you...     ----- Ashton

53. Subject: rant'n & rav'n Whenever I start to feel like there is nothing worth doing on the web anymore, and that we all are superficial ego-whores, I go to Netbabyworld, and everything is ok again for the rest of the day...    long live the pixel     ----- seth

54. Subject: ** * i was reading everyone's comments ok k10k today and i totally agree with what you guys are saying... it landed close to home and its something i've been in turmoil about for a while. i look at my own site say.. ok .. that's pretty i guess.. will this mean anything to anyone other than me? i can't really answer that question because people are looking for so many things. and maybe its not supposed to have a defined meaning to anyone other than myself. not sure about that yet.    i feel like a lot of my own work right now is derivative [ i've only been awake to the world of design less than a year] .. and that pisses me off.. but at the same time.. i don't feel like i can wait until i've mastered some unique form/style of "expression" before i can show it to people.    i guess the whole thing is just a huge learning experience for everyone. me especially. it would be really easy to not write this e-mail and just be content in this little obscure nook of the world, but i value everyone's opinion at k10k ... i know you posted my site yesterday, and i guess you think its some faceless person's sketchbook .. and maybe it is for now.. but i'm not afraid to lay it out for everyone to see and criticize. in fact, i welcome it.     ----- chandler owen

55. Subject: oooh the ranting. i have to say this: i have been reading the k10k news for a long time. and while i do not hold it up as a bible i do find myself there every morning looking for interesting things people are doing. that's all. just that.    i find it rather funny that while you guys (everyone ranting now) are freaking out about where we all sit with our "careers" (or lack therof) and where our fine medium is heading (who the hell knows - content or not) you yourselves are providing interesting content. maybe i just have a low threshold for my idea of interesting though.    the wonderful thing about the web is that you can make mistakes, you can work somewhere and walk away saying, "that sucked ass, my site turned out to be crap, the next one will rule". that's what personally keeps me here, always striving to better my work, to better my minimal contribution to the people around me.    what do you want? this place has turned into entertainment, if you didn't see that coming, you should be ashamed of yourselves, like everything, once more people get into something new the blood suckers start coming around poluting the purity of it with ads, revenue, and watered down goals. process blows, marketing blows, guess what? life sucks!    the good thing about our work lives is that we get to make things. content-design-code-etc. i don't mean to be all hippied out on you, because i too get frustrated with the medium, more with marketing suits telling my company that we need graphic ads in our title tags for synergistic relationship rollover partnership strategies, but don't take it so seriously, if the web disappears into watered down crap (kinda already has) well go register a new domain and do something about it. just because you are a (insert title here) doesn't mean that you can't make your own little contribution. clerks in many ways was as important to the film medium as star wars was. just work. and it will all come together.    there is a place in my opinion for all things - content sites, e-crapmerce, design portfolios, etc. if all these sites were the same guess what - you'd have nothing to bitch about, and that would be boring, and your own conversations and websites would lack content. go make something you bastards.    ----- nofriendo (not the praystation one)

56. Subject: hmmm I reckon you need some sleep.    I believe the point of all this design shit is to make some money while being creative - which is something 99% of the world's population don't get to do.    I suggest a nice fat spliff (if u puff) and some kip - you'll fell better in the morning mate.    ----- JP

Subject: jeffrey zeldman's comments design for its own sake? i've spewed on that before. these text boxes are too tiny to hold the content vs. eyecandy slugfest. next week's ala feature - Usability Experts are from Mars, Graphic Designers are from Venus - may shed some light. personally, i see nothing wrong with a design site like K10k promoting design for its own sake. i love this site. i love eyecandy. i love good writing and good programming. there's a lot to love on the web.     ----- jeffrey zeldman

57. Subject: great rant! Good for you, dude.    I've always found the design-for-design's-sake method annoying.    That's why I like designing *stories*. They're *saying* something. That's why I like fray.com and keep working on it.    And that's also why fray gets zero play in the super-wanky design circles.    Design too is easy when you have nothing to say.    ----- derek

58. Subject: Dispair Surely it's just like music, it's everywhere, some of it is 'good' some of it is 'bad', we have different tastes.    In the end if you take it too seriously you end being Jean Michelle Jarre.    ----- Mike Laurie

59. Subject: no subject specified I just read your rant on K10k and I agree: content design is overlooked so often that it is sad. The last place I worked always wanted to push form over function... how can we use Flash on our site? How can we make this "POP" a little more? To hell with actually having fresh, informed content presented in a sane, logical, easy to find manner...    And they were an e-commerce company. I've found myself getting more and more in this mindset, the more and more time I spend on the web and it almost kind of scares me.    It scares me so much that I've taken my personal site off-line so I can make it personal again. Spend some time being human so I can write and create human things - not just content to wrap a design idea around...    ----- matthew coburn

60. Subject: your 2 cents....THIS IS VERY LONG! > we have become so dependent on the bells > and whistles that we no longer think about > what we want to say and what is the appropriate > way to say it.....not all sites/design requires it. GREAT GREAT GREAT! I cannot tell you how often we discuss this. People (designers, ceo's and general idiots) have become so mesmorized by this new "wunderproduct" of the newest medium that it has become a necessity for some reason to have a website that is based solely on flash. It's interesting that it's called Flash too, it just makes websites so damn flashy--FOR NO REASON!   I digress, it is true that the average, everyday person couldn't give a shit about design, but I think that they know the difference when they're looking at bad vs. good design....wait, let me gather my thoughts a bit......   ok, information is the key. After all, what is our basic task as designers? to communicate a message. The other part is to dress that message up, but maintain a clear and concise point that is easily understood by the lay-person (which, as you've probably noticed I sometimes have a hard time doing with words). This is not the state of design by the general public.    Homepages used to be just a gray page, purple type and a stupid animated gif picture of someone. Now, they're all portfolio pages. Moreover, they all look exactly the same.   Here's the problem, sites like K10k (which I love) and three oh, etc, have all been doing a great service to bringing good design, which the web never was, to the forefront and to a perpetual state of stagnation! How many times have you been excited as hell to go in and read what your friends at K10k have written about the next great link you should see, gotten there and been disappointed? It has to be at least once per visit! I check every day, and at least 5 times a week I'm turning around to my art director saying "they all look the same" So, I guess that the question becomes, are all these link sites really doing a great service? I don't know....it could probably be a bit of yes and no. Maybe these "portal" sites should be a bit more discriminating. I'm not saying that I'm a better designer than anyone else, but those of us who work professionally in the field should consider it OUR duty to educate these 15 year old designers who become "instant celebrities" because they know a bit of photoshop. Would you, at method, give some of these cats a job? They just design, they don't communicate. Unfortunately, the web has not yet gotten to the point where we can truly be content/entertainment designers, so I guess that's where quality Flash design comes in.     Recently (being a broadcast firm mainly) we were approached by a company, who will remain nameless, that felt and still feels that they have the answer to convergence. That they'd bring broadband into the forefront. After they gave us their 50 page summation, a select group of us sat down and shot billions of holes in it. Now they're flopping around not knowing what to do with themselves and we got all excited for nothing. Point being, that (as you said...."the average...") people are not on DSL or t-1 connections and still have to sit through excrutiatingly long download times for real-player and even Flash. Our site is built mainly for DSL connections, but I don't feel as though that's the always the way to go. Ok, I may be rambling, but I guess I just wanted you to know that I agree with you, but I feel that we should do all we can as professionals to push the medium and look toward the next new media. Remember, TV was "amazing" when the first black and white's came out. This is essentially what the internet is right now. Black and white TV. Let's dress it up, communicate, and look toward high definition. Beyond that, 80% of the people in the world have never even made a phone call, so we have to remember that the internet is not quite as ubiquitous as we would like to believe.....    ----- Jodi Terwilliger

61. Subject: hmmm seeing it's rant day.... I do actually totally agree with what you are saying about the 'web celebs' and about people creating their own shit.    I like yourself view a lot of sites daily (k10k is a great help) and you can see what has been nicked from and where a lot of the time I have a funny example of this - (well I think it's funny )- a couple of years ago I created Mutanoid-Humanoid, with the beta of flash 3 and for a reason I don't know; my choice of font was rather horrible (impact), weeks later I found about 7 sites copying elements, espiecally the nasty type! . It seemed, because it was one the early F3 sites some people thought my type was nice and should be copied.    I believe all this 'stealing/inspiration ' of ideas is down to the fact that a lot of the modern so called designers, simply aren't - they can use the technology but don't have an original idea between them.   I've taught flash (and other fingz) in the past, and what I've always said is 'mastering the application is not hard, the hard bit is having an idea of what you'll create with these tools...    Saying all that, I still have hope for the 'designer race'.    ----- JP

62. Subject: RE: rant and rave! and it was a great rant! You're right though, the ammount of sites I have visited and thought "fark! what a great design idea" but when it actually comes time to navigate the site the content is virtually non-existant!    I think people believe all the original ideas have been used up, everything we see is a rehashed version of something else which is probably driven by the need for instant recognition. See an idea, take something from it, quickly make your own version so people can go "wow look what he did" but the time is never taken to come up with an actual concept beyond the look.    It's a sad state of affairs! But you are right, it is up to us to think of the content before we start putting pen to paper/mouse to photoshop.    ----- Scott Brown

63. Subject: dogs i totally agree. :)    only sites i visit more than once are content and/or music based (and some not even that great design-wise):    atomfilms craigslist.org shockwave (shows series are getting better )    k10k (always a good read and sometimes fun and interesting links - but god damn the external pop up window sites. i mean targeting to another site is one thing but on one's own site?? c'mon. what ever happened to function vs. fashion anyway?)    thermalrecordings.com (one of my projects - a work in perpetual progress i suppose)    breakbeat.co.uk (okay so i am a drum n bass fanatic - i like stimuli in the form of music - but i like all sorts of music as well - i just happen to dig the 170+ bpm's. the design here is pretty bad tho)    groovetech.com    livedjs.com    neurofunk.com    dublab.com    theonion    not-so-massive.com (yay dlux!)    urbansounds (go marie!)    and then there's the hideous message boards...    on another note. yes all these dot coms in san francisco and their docker types are indirectly ruining the club scene among other things. i should talk though - i work at a dot com- and there ARE some cool people in web design. Production managers need to have been there to know how to do it.    at my previous job, our Director of Web said "DHTML is not compatable with our servers". that was the day i decided to quit.    but my camping gear is ready for the bigassearthquake.dot dot...what we need is a 4.0 or so to scare these upper middle management suck ups away.    ----- controlled substance

Subject: mike cina's comments ahhh. i guess i will have to jump in on this.    content. what is it?    i just wrote an essay on this last week. content and how it applys to to trueistrue. most people write to me saying they just don't get my site because it has no content (text?).    version five has 'content' something that i have never pushed. but is this content valuable and fresh? i don't think so. i feel that all the other work on trueistrue is content and this isn't. (read my source code (content!) hint hint) i feel that shapes and images can communicate.    one of the problems with designers today is that they have no knowledge of art history. graphic language is what i am talking about. and that is content. people need to know how to use it and grids too. can i get a witness? read folks, read.     ----- mike cina

64. Subject: content : dogs I hang out at your site daily and sometimes I send in links - I thought I'd offer you guys my thoughts on the whole 'content' issue. You're probably sick of these mails already so I'll try to be brief.    After reading mschmidt's original comments last night and the aftermath today, I ended up thinking about all this stuff quite a bit. I think what I really want to say is that most of you really talented design guys and gals out on the web are a real inspiration to me.    I'm a software developer, but I'm looking into getting into more product / interface / environment design work so whether its the k10k issue of the week or volumeone or photomontage or whatever I surf around and find, it's all inspiration to me. Regardless of if there's 'content' or not. Sometimes the code behind the sites is great (like Mike Cina said - that in and of itself is content), sometimes its the emotional narrative, sometimes the graphic design and style is just beautiful, etc.... I think the term content is relative to the person.    That's not to say that I disagree with the traditional idea of web content, but I think over the top design sites have their place on the web just as much Red Herring or the New York Times does - in fact the web belongs to those pushing the medium to its farthest. Regardless of the content (ok I'm getting sick of the word now), design sites are out to show everyone else how its done and hopefully get some new ideas over to the ever more corporate web.    The attention span thing is an issue, but I know whenever I start to feel like I'm consuming just to consume, I go somewhere and read or leave my computer. I really appreciate the work that goes into designing and coding a really well done site - maybe that's the issue - the fact that it takes someone who is well versed in software / web design to really appreciate the design sites (although arguably that's not the case).    When it starts to become a mutual admiration society is when it gets boring. There's always got to be room for more ideas, there always will be more ideas, someone else will always top your idea, and the web continues and flows.... I don't know if you read the piece on zeldman's site about why we create on the web , but it was awesome - I would send you the link, but it's on my palm. :-) Anyway, the major point of the piece was to try and figure out what the web fulfills - why are we here doing this?    It was very interesting. How that relates to this discussion is that I think a really nicely done flash narrative (one example of many) piece can hold more meaning that 90% of the rest of the web. Why? Quite simple - it's art, dammit. It's helps people fill the voids in their existence - that nagging why am I here thing, that space in between thing, that I really want to think about something else besides my miserable life thing.... you get my point.    The content is in what the piece gets the viewers' brain to think. It's not so force fed or deterministic like it is with traditional content. I'm not saying I think all design sites are good - hell, I'm not even saying 20% of the design sites are good, but when they are good (just like with any other style of site - blog, news, search, whatever) they're really good. And you always go back again. And that's really cool. We can only hope that there are always going to be people who are passionate about what they do on the web because that's what makes it great regardless of the type of content.    ----- Joshua Selsky

65. Subject: Re: Rant I think it's natural to be influenced by the people whose work you admire, but it does seem that it's gotten a bit out of hand lately.    It's one thingwhen a site is overly influenced by the "web celebs" because the site's creator still hasn't developed their own style (I think I fall into this category myself) but it's something else entirely when someone rips someone else's style out of laziness, or just to follow a trend.    I have been encouraged to find a couple of new webzines that do a good job, I think, of delivering a "complete package," like Shorn and The Brand New Wheel.    Even these sites don't add new content often enough to get on my list of regular reads, though. I'd love to create a webzine with a stellar design that also featured great writing on a daily basis, but I'm nowhere near skilled enough to pull it off yet.    Someday, hopefully.    ----- Gerald Stanley

66. Subject: Zeldman has a point This might have been posted already, but then, here it comes again ;)    Jeffrey Zeldman has a point in his column "Where have all the designers gone" at Adobe. Definetly worth of reading, check it out    "They [designers] embed Flash files and Quicktime movies on every page, and smile secretly when their uncle's AOL browser crashes upon entering the site..."    ----- sami niemelä

67. Subject: y3r r4nt I really appreciate the position you posted yesterday. I also get frustrated looking for new good ideas and interesting writing, or art on the web that will knock me out of my shitty office furniture. I read TWO points in your rant:    1. Most design sites lack any substantial and interesting words    2. Most design sites look like all the other design sites    Toke and Cameron have good points, too.   When Cameron says: "good design gives you the information you want in a non-chaotic manner."    She and Jakob Neilsen are right.   and when Toke says: "I see all these dead design-glitsy hollow sites and I think "great, I have a nice opportunity too look into people's sketchbooks here", that's all it is."   thats also right, I think. There's nothing wrong with sketchbooks - they just aren't always great and inspiring...that's why they are sketchbooks, and public sketchbooks have some value.    The general problem isn't really a problem, its the same way things have always been. Before the web, the news stand was always cluttered with a bunch of crap magazines and newspapers were filled with a bunch of crap articles and TV was hours of crap programming. Day to day life is bombardment with crap information, and more people on the earth means more crap. Good ways of filtering that crap are hard to find, and the crap is particularly annoying if you aren't interested in being a hermit. Search engines are miserable. This is one of the values of YOUR site: you guys provide an excellent filter. You publicly wondered about the value of the news feature on your site a few months ago...I like it, but maybe sometimes less is more. Higher quality filters are always nice. I also like articles. The good news / bad news thing was also very interesting, particularly because of its personal nature. Your rant versus Toke's complaint in the good news / bad news is interesting. You both (like me and many others) spend all day at the internet. When you invest so much time and energy into a place, you see all the flaws in it (like a girlfriend). It becomes a matter of can you accept all the flaws and still love it and continue to pour yourself into it. I don't imagine either of you is anywhere near dropping out of the web design world. You provide a valuable contribution, and by the tone of your rants, its clear that despite your annoyances, you still love the web.    My suggestion: thin out the links. Fewer links will better emphasize the really outstanding ones. Add more articles and substantial text content to your site. You guys have interesting insights, and the more you expound, the better those insights are.    As for the filtering, one of my clients right now is this company ••••••••. They are making a search/filtering tool. I'm not sure yet how well it will work, but its and interesting project they've undertaken, and it has a lot of potential to solve the crap-filtering problem. You can scope the idea at ••••••••.    I'm doing a variety of work for them, and trying to persuade them to take a different approach to the look of their site (my personal feeling is that what's up now is garbage - I'm having some luck, but the solution hasn't been implemented just yet). I'll send you a copy of the app before it comes out so you can scope it and maybe give me some feedback.    Wow. Long-ass letter. One of the longer I've written in a while.    ----- Nick Bell

68. Subject: RE: rants I was delighted to read your rant on your K10K website... I am not a designer, but I visit every day to see what people are saying.    I believe that what you say in your rant is symptomatic of our general culture. Everyday we live and breathe messages - from the marketers and the news people.. and we have generally built up an immunity to it. So much so... that we are not even interested in the message any more... to the point that new pieces of work do not even pretend to have one. One empty vessel spawns others.    We simply do not have the time or inclination to be engaged by anything - messages are pointless.    Therefore to engage... the glamour element (which you point out) as well as being able to hit the boundries of some new effect or widget seem to be the only tricks that designers bother with. They do not seek to inform, entertain... etc - but with the reverence with which this sort of work is bandied about - enlighten.    Irony as a form of communication is used - probably too much. There is no problem with this... it is just that I think sometimes people miss the point maybe this could be true of the younger generations. Irony cuts out the explanations... it is the acceptable form of "intelligence" - those who employ it all the time have forgotten how to express argument and have little original eloquence of their own. You are not required to engage in intelligent discussion - you just have to have an armoury of minimalist, tedious, and ironic expressions which substitute proper converstion. Generally speaking... this is fine - it is a kind of verbal abbreviation if you lack the time... but potentially it is a bit dangerous if who you are communicating with is unable to really understand what the words are loaded with.    Therefore it is no wonder that sites like superbad - are held up to be super wonderful (OK I admit, really like it.. in a fetishist kind of way) and the crassist amaterish sites are lauded because of their ironic nature (usually unrealised ironic nature... village idiot style). Is irony the only language we speak these days?    But then I suppose, superbad is OK, because it knows what it is about and is communicating a message ... I just suppose is down to the wit of the user to be engaged in the right sort of way. However, can this go on? Will the next generation understand it... or worse still.. hold it up with an underserved reverence?    If it is indeed glamour and enlightenment which people seek through computer generated art (apologies... I use this term very loosely - to encompass animation, multimedia and web design) - then - really meaningful content and its presentation will be the enlightening thing... not widgets for widgets sake...these are merely the building blocks. I dream of executions which play with curiosity... generate enquiry and have a depth which can be discovered..... just a thought    ----- Naomi Ogus

69. Subject: last shot at a content-ed industry (deliver me) I had a really long letter for you, but I won't waste your time. To summarize all that I had written: why do all the sites you link to look (basically) the same? As a student thinking about a career in design, why should I enter into an industry full of stagnation and bullshit thought?    And what, besides having a pretty and influential web site, are you doing about it? Deliver me from Flash, from designs that hate their viewers, from "revolutionary, groundbreaking" work that looks like MTV, from what the admen want us to see, from an industry without content that debates about content. You have people, you have style, you have debates that make you feel like you're reassesing the whole "scene." But one week later I'm still being linked to shit like ••••••••, which looks like K10K without talent and has wallpaper with cheap vector turntables that proclaims that these guys are "kicking their design oldskool..."    WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO ABOUT THIS?    You've got a forum, use it. This is basically my last shot at the design world that I don't want anything to do with. Design is masturbation, financed and even more boring every time.    Don't reply to me, reply to the whole community, that listens to you like a Pavlovian trained-dog, waiting for its instructions.    ----- al3x payne